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@ 7bdef7be:784a5805
2025-04-30 18:11:17
I agree that an offline-first approach is superior, and often needed, also to cover areas with poor or instable connectivity.
But is the signature really needed when the user is offline? Or should he be able to manipulate the content, and the signature can take place as soon the connection is restored, before the event is sent?
-
@ f54b90c8:09b56086
2025-04-30 17:28:22
It has gotten a lot easier building pwa for the web. Some webframework like tanstack router makes provides a good starting point
-
@ b90c3cb7:1be67823
2025-04-30 15:51:16
Gleason is solid with PWA notifications (they have a central relay). Try adding either https://ditto.pub/ or else https://gleasonator.dev/ and to the home screen and when done sign in. At some stage you should get a prompt to allow notifications as attached. Once you approve then the PWA will show as notification enabled in your notification settings, double check. Then wait for some nostr notifications (replies, reactions) and see if you're getting them even when the app isn't active.
https://image.nostr.build/ccc407b2cd0698c4c7e522a6bc6d588be7d5f8e76fcc2c84f21516be65f284b0.png
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@ be7358c4:047c840e
2025-04-30 15:30:47
More secure than localstorage in js, but still on the user’s device so I don’t have to store it in a database that I own
-
@ be7358c4:047c840e
2025-04-30 15:29:33
I more meant if their phone screen is locked/asleep it won’t wake
I’ll have to try option B again, maybe that’s good enough
-
@ 32e18276:5c68e245
2025-04-30 15:22:15
The web literally can’t. They are gimped database wise. This is why i ultimately concluded we need a better runtime environment for nostr apps.
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@ 438ca533:e78af8aa
2025-04-30 15:20:49
finally someone understands the importance of offline first apps 🫂❤️🩹
I hope jumble.social adopts this philosophy sometime soon
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@ 32e18276:5c68e245
2025-04-30 15:08:52
using computers without internet? Most of the apps on my computer and phone are designed to work without an internet connection. You’re dooming all future nostr apps to be online always.
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@ 7bdef7be:784a5805
2025-04-30 15:05:14
Cool. But this doesn't sound like a typical normies' scenario :)
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@ 32e18276:5c68e245
2025-04-30 14:58:58
a lot of my usecases for notedeck are offline usecases (using 100s of nostr applications together offline, then resync when you’re back online). bunker is immediately out the window.
-
@ 910af907:7204e66d
2025-04-30 12:20:34
This. I've really come to love the idea of PWAs. As bloated as the modern web is, it can do just about anything with the right APIs and permissions, and PWAs can work totally offline. Browsers are also usually built from the ground up with security and fine tunable permissions in mind.
A lot of mobile apps wind up rendered by the webview anyways, and a bunch of desktops bundle an entire browser like electon in just to be written as a site and then run as an app. Skipping the middle man saves a bunch of space on your device, keeps things a little more secure and private (if done right), and makes the app instantly OS agnostic as long as you've got a desktop and mobile layout.
/end random monologue
-
@ 8be603f3:d6376ee1
2025-04-30 12:12:59
Hi,I've got some exciting news for you,I can teach you how to turn your $300 into $9500 in just 4hours investing Bitcoin mining without interrupting your daily activities.
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-
@ f901616f:95c58e27
2025-04-30 12:11:06
🎯
-
@ 23b0e2f8:d8af76fc
2025-04-30 11:58:49
Mas aí tu ta sendo preconceituosa com pessoas que possuem menos capacidades cognitivas que gostam de usar sistemas da apple.
-
@ 06b7819d:d1d8327c
2025-04-30 11:41:57
plus hypermedia apps.
https://hypermedia.systems
-
@ 8fb94500:2ccce549
2025-04-30 11:32:54
normies will never use nostr either I think that's what you want to say
-
@ feef1501:12c7c7b1
2025-04-30 11:29:26
pick your poison
-
@ 7bdef7be:784a5805
2025-04-30 08:31:06
I respectfully disagree.
We should just give them a better/compact form for an improved UX; maybe a login via NIP-05 plus a password to retrieve and decrypt the actual bunker URL is enough.
-
@ 9e1bd05e:94a9b030
2025-04-30 08:09:59
maybe he was, most likely others shared this view: it does not change what happened.
-
@ b299876b:7c10c838
2025-04-30 08:03:53
I guess this depends on how secure you want to be… do you mean having access to a secure element or something similar?
-
@ 50d94fc2:df281d63
2025-04-30 07:54:36
Cons: some native features missing
Pros: you never need to explain Apple what ecash is
nostr:nevent1qqs82md3ngljyuh8kvaq9mhagqj8rrrckpnvdvzpajkw6y6k6djtmxcpz4mhxue69uhkummnw3ezummcw3ezuer9wchsygyzxs0cs2mw40xjhfl3a7g24ktpeur54u2mnm6y5z0e6250h7lx5gpsgqqqqqqsvtu5lu
-
@ b22b06b0:4120a7f2
2025-04-30 07:48:56
I want to use Bunker but I don't know how
-
@ b90c3cb7:1be67823
2025-04-30 05:32:38
You mean if a user adds a PWA to the home screen, and then closes that app altogether?
Or if a user adds it to the home screen, opens it, and then opens another app or swipes away? (Jump over to Clash of Clans for example)
For A it won't work. For B it should though.
-
@ 8125b911:a8400883
2025-04-30 04:39:04
It's really difficult to adapt for mobile devices. But it's worth a try, because I don't want to be controlled by the App Store.
-
@ 8125b911:a8400883
2025-04-30 04:37:09
Unfortunately, from my observation, most people don't know about Bunker, and it's not suitable for them to use Bunker either 😂. I'd still recommend using browser extensions. For mobile devices, you can rely on apps like KeyChat.
-
@ d89b2a26:9b9aca47
2025-04-30 02:53:43
Absolutely, I always start with PWA. Its non-negotiable.
-
@ df57b498:d049124f
2025-04-30 02:50:02
100% agree must escape apple and android.
Then we need grapheneOS rooted hardware as the next step, can use Pixel mobile and tablet for immediate time being.
I will go meet OEM when in Taiwan in a couple of weeks.
SPEED UP.
nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzpq35r7yzkm4te5460u00jz4djcw0qa90zku7739qn7wj4ralhe4zqqs82md3ngljyuh8kvaq9mhagqj8rrrckpnvdvzpajkw6y6k6djtmxcumpuxm
-
@ 1ea4ae84:b59a2ae8
2025-04-30 02:40:07
i have never lost a single thing in 30+ years of wild footprint.
-
@ 1ea4ae84:b59a2ae8
2025-04-30 02:37:21
your device is a key.... 😶
-
@ be7358c4:047c840e
2025-04-30 02:35:46
Even when added to Home Screen, you can’t have a notification pushed to the user if the app isn’t open on iOS
Notifications can only be pushed if the app is being actively viewed
I’ve tried
If you have a way to do it, let me know because I’m definitely interested
-
@ 9cb3545c:2ff47bca
2025-04-30 02:33:09
nostr:npub10qdp2fc9ta6vraczxrcs8prqnv69fru2k6s2dj48gqjcylulmtjsg9arpj is out there being one of the best PWAs.
Underrated imo.
-
@ e0200dbb:0bffc9f8
2025-04-30 02:31:05
my only app attempt & that was my huge mistake: not doing web, starting w/ ios
-
@ 82341f88:fbfbe6a2
2025-04-30 02:30:51
yes. tradeoffs between that and the gatekeepers. currently.
-
@ 9cb3545c:2ff47bca
2025-04-30 02:24:02
Great client.
-
@ c5cfda98:5a21e778
2025-04-30 02:19:17
Yeah for sure. I think one way would be to use webauthn credentials to encrypt the private key, the it could be store in IndexedDB encrypted. Then any time the user needs to sign an event you could request navigator.credentials.get() which would pull up face/Touch ID to decrypt key and sign. Not perfect but it could be a potential solution.
-
@ bbf923aa:62088f1e
2025-04-30 02:17:56
Web apps and PWAs can’t reliably support Signal or MLS protocol because those protocols depend on secure, persistent local storage and uninterrupted processing to keep cryptographic state (double-ratchets, MLS group keys and membership) up to date, whereas browsers only offer volatile storage and can’t guarantee continuous execution—so keys and session data risk being lost.
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@ 82341f88:fbfbe6a2
2025-04-30 02:12:48
it's all tradeoffs
-
@ 82341f88:fbfbe6a2
2025-04-30 02:12:37
agree
-
@ c4b5369a:b812dbd6
2025-04-30 02:08:08
This is how i see it, as long as we rely on gatekeeping app stores for distributing native apps
nostr:nevent1qqs82md3ngljyuh8kvaq9mhagqj8rrrckpnvdvzpajkw6y6k6djtmxcpzamhxue69uhhyetvv9ujuurjd9kkzmpwdejhgtczyzprg8ug9dh2hnft5lc7ly92m9su7p6279deaaz2p8ua928ml0n2yqcyqqqqqqg29xd68
-
@ c5cfda98:5a21e778
2025-04-30 02:07:40
The biggest problem with PWA imo is that there’s not a great way to store private key. Specifically on iOS you don’t have access to keychain as you would on a native app. I also I am not sure you can use a Safari extension as you normally would from just using Safari.
-
@ cc05487a:8eddd6a8
2025-04-30 02:00:58
Wait… PWA is inherently non-secure… why use that?
-
@ 576d23dc:9f5848f9
2025-04-30 01:54:50
The proposal is very similar to mine, but:
- requires you to validate the lineage before giving the event an identity
- allows an event to retroactively change identity
- both of these makes life hell for relays and mute/follow lists
If you haven't taken a look, I think you'll find my NIP-102 proposal to be simpler and easier to implement
-
@ c21b1a6c:0cd4d170
2025-04-30 01:52:20
I've been able to get it working with amber and relay.nsec.app to a very usable degree, even though I have like 700ms ping.
So much so that it's becoming a priority to add it to formstr
-
@ 0f43d0f6:602db77b
2025-04-30 01:50:16
Native desktop and Android first. End the web.
-
@ 32e18276:5c68e245
2025-04-30 01:49:59
its really not. I have never been able to get it working reliably.
-
@ c21b1a6c:0cd4d170
2025-04-30 01:49:15
Remote signing is also good.
-
@ f4fab6b6:4c505510
2025-04-30 01:46:37
Sim, são importante, principalmente para coisas em sistemas como a Apple, ou em fase beta, mas nada disso exclui a importância e flexibilidade de um apk. Se você precisa usar PWA, está no sistema operacional errado.
-
@ 32e18276:5c68e245
2025-04-30 01:42:41
i am going to tie them together with device key lists
-
@ 576d23dc:9f5848f9
2025-04-30 01:41:55
Just different keys on different devices? Nothing wrong with that, but why not tie them together? It's very little overhead for lots of value
-
@ 32e18276:5c68e245
2025-04-30 01:41:04
at least for super private stuff. otherwise I think the nostr-browser approach is the most user friendly and dev-friendly way to build nostr apps.
-
@ 32e18276:5c68e245
2025-04-30 01:39:59
I'm taking a different approach with device keys
-
@ 576d23dc:9f5848f9
2025-04-30 01:34:26
That's why we should separate identity and authorization: https://github.com/nostr-protocol/nips/pull/1450
-
@ 438ca533:e78af8aa
2025-04-30 01:33:33
nostr:npub1syjmjy0dp62dhccq3g97fr87tngvpvzey08llyt6ul58m2zqpzps9wf6wl should Jumble point users to use.nsec.app or Amber at the auth screen?
-
@ e096a89e:59351479
2025-04-30 01:32:47
I'm into that too
-
@ 438ca533:e78af8aa
2025-04-30 01:31:56
if we take this as a premise, nostr will fail as normal people would paste their nsec everywhere and eventually leak it
To use nostr means they must go up to another level
They will have to learn the nostr way of doing things
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@ 438ca533:e78af8aa
2025-04-30 01:28:14
A minha maior crítica é o jumble não ter sido desenvolvido para ser offline first.
Sinceramente, qual o problema de ser PWA? Isso é literalmente onde o sol brilha. Todos os clientes nativos que usar vai travar, consumir uma memória e bateria insana e ainda vai crashar do nada. Jumble roda no Chrome ou qualquer outro navegador. Chrome não vai deixar lagar nem travar nem crashar. É um app facil de ser atualizado e você pode usar versões antigas acessando o Github em cada commit, além de que é muito fácil rodar você mesmo seu próprio jumble sem precisar do site pois o código está aí.
-
@ 32e18276:5c68e245
2025-04-30 01:27:56
normies will never use bunkers
-
@ c37b6a82:5afa7e63
2025-04-30 01:24:59
forget primal (its already good) make nostr.com a web client where regular people can create an account and try nostr
-
@ 576d23dc:9f5848f9
2025-04-30 01:23:53
Hey, the first advocate of PWA was Steve Jobs. He didn't want there to be any App Store – just the web
-
@ 438ca533:e78af8aa
2025-04-30 01:23:40
Jumble is the most well designed nostr client, and thanks to chrome/V8 it won't lag nor crash all of a sudden. No other client can't stand before jumble as they all have annoying crashes (mainly the native ones) and problems the Devs won't even fix any sooner, and things even gets worse when you don't have a powerful PC/smartphone. Nostr has never been so peaceful until I started using jumble.
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@ 576d23dc:9f5848f9
2025-04-30 01:22:18
Web pages are also hard by themselves. We mostly solve this by pre-caching and centralization. It ain't pretty
-
@ 9e1bd05e:94a9b030
2025-04-30 01:20:21
It's harder cause the "market" pushed towards native apps for over a decade. Faster, more reliable, more control, more compliant, stores with policies.. It made sense.
But I can see a momentum for web and pwa. Not just interest from people like us. Also finally Mozilla is jumping back on working on it.
If we work on this all those problems are going to go away.
Just one example: cashu.me is definitely one of the best app i use and it's a PWA.
-
@ 438ca533:e78af8aa
2025-04-30 01:18:22
Fiatjaf's njump does this, so it gets a little time to fetch the newest notes. Cache it is.
-
@ 438ca533:e78af8aa
2025-04-30 01:17:01
jumble.social uses bunker for mobile
use.nsec.app is the pwa companion for jumble
-
@ 576d23dc:9f5848f9
2025-04-30 01:16:37
Definitely not criticizing any PWA. Maintaining them is hard work 🙏
-
@ 576d23dc:9f5848f9
2025-04-30 01:15:34
Load html straight from the relay
-
@ e5308b9c:cf8f4c08
2025-04-30 01:13:52
I have only 2 PWAs:
https://stacker.news
https://cloudpilot-emu.github.io/app/#/tab/emulation
-
@ 5c50661b:5ed69f91
2025-04-30 01:09:10
Nostr browser LFG LOL 😂😂😂🤘
-
@ 619af6a6:6d3bdf23
2025-04-30 01:09:05
And if you find any problem, I'm sure Jumble developer nostr:npub1syjmjy0dp62dhccq3g97fr87tngvpvzey08llyt6ul58m2zqpzps9wf6wl is listening and will fix it.
-
@ 1ea4ae84:b59a2ae8
2025-04-30 01:08:12
text me - 😏.
-
@ 17538dc2:71ed77c4
2025-04-30 01:07:55
#induecourse
-
@ 619af6a6:6d3bdf23
2025-04-30 01:07:35
So test jumble.social. I'm sure you will love it.
-
@ 3492dd43:1af4ffdd
2025-04-30 01:06:21
nah. i think people just stop building for ios and let the dev mindshare dry up for ios and let the market incentivize apple to stop treating their customers like idiots
-
@ 576d23dc:9f5848f9
2025-04-30 01:03:31
It always starts off great. Then you realize that:
- landscape layout sucks
- app manifest caching is broken
- ... only on certain platforms
- people are stuck on an old version
- or they just want to use the app right now instead of updating
- or their connection was unstable on update and now they have half old and have new assets
- some basic API isn't available
- or is available but has different options than the normal API
- or different bugs
- and things behave differently when installed as a PWA vs a web page
- etc
This isn't a criticism of jumble.social as I haven't used it. I've long advocated for PWAs and web first, but... it's way harder than it needs to be
-
@ 1ea4ae84:b59a2ae8
2025-04-30 01:02:52
depends on the structure you have built because just balls-out "come and get me" will get you fried; you cannot just fling yourself off a cliff - in any context.
-
@ b90c3cb7:1be67823
2025-04-30 01:02:42
They can do background notifications but you have to get the user to add the app to the home screen. Basically PWAs on iOS come in two flavours, home screen installed and not, and it's hard to discuss much without specifying which case.
Adding is not easy to get users to do, really need to make it a core part of the UX.
-
@ be7358c4:047c840e
2025-04-30 01:00:54
I agree
Notification limits are gate-kept by Apple and are unlikely to lift it for risk of compromising App Store revenue
Not sure how to address web browser security though for key storage
-
@ ee6ea13a:959b6e74
2025-04-30 01:00:54
Primal web really needs some attention.
-
@ e0078226:0bf1a06d
2025-04-30 00:55:47
that's why we need to push for pwa, iOS can do it for sure if ppl stop using app store, pwa is how mobile apps should be
-
@ e0078226:0bf1a06d
2025-04-30 00:51:46
I wonder if apple want charge 30% if user paid subscription by sats
-
@ 32e18276:5c68e245
2025-04-30 00:51:10
I don't have a single PWA installed on my phone. the web + nostr is a minefield of complexity due to needing signing extensions, etc. would be better to just have a browser for nostr apps.
-
@ 619af6a6:6d3bdf23
2025-04-30 00:50:55
No, look at jumble.social nostr client. It's PWA and works amazing.
cc nostr:npub1syjmjy0dp62dhccq3g97fr87tngvpvzey08llyt6ul58m2zqpzps9wf6wl
-
@ be7358c4:047c840e
2025-04-30 00:50:31
PWAs don’t have background notifications on iOS and can’t store secrets/keys securely
I prefer PWAs, but this is an obstacle I’m stuck on
Advice welcome
-
@ 576d23dc:9f5848f9
2025-04-30 00:49:48
I agree, but it's really hard to make a first class PWA. There are a lot of edge cases
-
@ 23b0e2f8:d8af76fc
2025-04-30 00:49:24
Tambem vi a importancia de não usar apple
-
@ a4c728b1:f3e8e04b
2025-04-30 00:49:03
So will bitkey go web/pwa?
-
@ 619af6a6:6d3bdf23
2025-04-30 00:46:47
Viu nostr:npub17natddjkmse4z8frh7ysynwtzanzmvs9d76c5r53546wsnzs25gqfdeqey, a importância de ter clientes PWA?
-
@ 82341f88:fbfbe6a2
2025-04-30 00:46:04
let the mobile clients chase
-
@ 619af6a6:6d3bdf23
2025-04-30 00:45:46
So jumble.social
-
@ 82341f88:fbfbe6a2
2025-04-30 00:45:26
web and pwa first
nostr:nevent1qvzqqqqqqypzp4sl80zm866yqrha4esknfwp0j4lxfrt29pkrh5nnnj2rgx6dm62qythwumn8ghj7un9d3shjtnswf5k6ctv9ehx2ap0qy88wumn8ghj7mn0wvhxcmmv9uq3jamnwvaz7tmswfjk66t4d5h8qunfd4skctnwv46z7qpq2aqu7wrdxcz2m8hda8wwd424uy04kfj7jd47svgn7f0vu7532kssaex7eh
-
@ 356875ff:bf96a2e8
2025-04-28 18:56:07
Is storing your wine in the bottom of a dark, cool pantry enough if you intend to drink within 0-24 months?
-
@ a3718378:fa6ae16e
2025-04-28 18:52:31
"... it acts like estrogen in the body." That's true! When I drink a lot of beer, then I start talking shit and can no longer drive. Badumtss.
-
@ 7bdef7be:784a5805
2025-04-27 13:55:41
Good point.
And I suspect memes incentivize fuzzy positions with their irony, so the focus of ideas is further diluted.
nostr:nevent1qqsxpt5n827c9hjucfc2x2xz863x5nyp95mkejg495trxmhrjlwh6nqpz9mhxue69uhkummnw3ezuamfdejj7q3qvadcfln4ugt2h9ruwsuwu5vu5am4xaka7pw6m7axy79aqyhp6u5qxpqqqqqqzshk4h3
-
@ dab9562a:ba18162e
2025-04-27 13:41:08
AI is a tool*/* which can *B* usED +/- */*ya n_n/*****
-
@ 0d97beae:c5274a14
2025-04-27 13:35:50
I think this is a good take on AI and education/mind evolution.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0xS68sl2D70
-
@ 6ff28c6b:49fe1b51
2025-04-27 13:35:47
@Grok is this true?
-
@ 8685ebef:58f8faf8
2025-04-27 13:30:34
On that topic: nostr:note1gkyx726dgujz3crnc56n6cvj6ha4euukkz40s33kt728xuheux5s9krz7u
-
@ 675b84fe:12e1d728
2025-04-27 13:25:04
People started losing the ability to use language when the internet gave them communication with pictures.
I thought that was bad; but I suspect that as AI continues to develop, people are going to lose the ability to think at all.
-
@ a44dbc9a:b6c4bf4b
2025-04-26 19:21:04
I prefer it.
Accepting it is hard because of alcohol restrictions but your damn sure I have work arounds. Just DM me if you have questions
-
@ 5708b1f6:208df3b8
2025-04-26 18:16:19
This note and your other note about organic wine, and talk of circular economies, are all making me more and more interested in trying your product soon.
You still accept bitcoin, right? 😝