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@ TFTC (News Bot)
2025-06-15 21:01:34Key Takeaways
In this episode, host Marty speaks with Ken, a former CIA deputy chief and now head of government affairs at the Bitcoin Policy Institute, about Bitcoin’s growing relevance in U.S. national security and policy circles. Ken traces his Bitcoin journey from professional curiosity within the CIA, studying adversarial use cases like the Lazarus Group, to personal conviction following events like the Canadian trucker protests, which exposed the dangers of financial censorship. Contrary to popular belief, he reveals that many in the intelligence community support Bitcoin for its alignment with American values such as sovereignty and freedom. The conversation highlights a major cultural shift in Washington, where policymakers now view Bitcoin as a strategic asset rather than a criminal tool. Ken stresses that the future hinges on whether Bitcoin shapes institutions or is co-opted by them, and that political engagement is crucial to ensure the former. He argues Bitcoin can help solve systemic problems from fiscal irresponsibility to geopolitical instability, but only if the industry continues to organize, advocate, and embed its values into national policy.
Best Quotes
"Either institutions are going to win, or Bitcoin is going to win."
"Bitcoin naturally washes out leverage… it's what makes Bitcoin antifragile."
"The CIA didn’t create Bitcoin, but they sure are paying attention now."
"We were all Satoshi."
"Let’s not test the resistance-money thesis in the United States."
"Bitcoin strengthens U.S. values, freedom, private property, sovereignty."
"Bitcoin is political, but it doesn't have to be partisan."
"If you're in a federal agency, the only incentive is to spend more. Bitcoin changes that."
"Don't underestimate your voice. If you keep the phones ringing, they listen."
Conclusion
This episode offers a rare glimpse into how Bitcoin is increasingly viewed as a serious strategic asset within the U.S. intelligence and policy communities. Ken, with his high-level government background and current role in Bitcoin advocacy, underscores the shift from skepticism to engagement among policymakers. His message is clear: Bitcoiners are no longer outsiders, they have a seat at the table, and with sustained political action and education, they can shape the future of Bitcoin policy. The time to engage is now, because the battle for Bitcoin’s role in society is already in motion.
Timestamps
0:00 - Intro
0:26 - Ken's background
6:58 - Tornado/Samourai, surveillance state
11:53 - Reestablishing trust
14:23 - Bitkey
15:18 - CIA bitcoin theory
18:42 - Neutral reserve asset
23:52 - Unchained
24:20 - BPI
29:49 - CLARITY and Secret Service message
33:54 - Withstanding a change in administration
40:03 - Institutions win or bitcoin wins
46:43 - Shrinking gov with bitcoin
57:47 - BPI summitTranscript
00:00:00 compared to China or Russia, do we have a comparable advantage in gold? How do we compete with China? And this is what the kinds of things CI will think about. Bitcoin is a natural option. At the end of the day, Bitcoin undermines the authority of the Chinese Communist Party. Either institutions are going to win or Bitcoin is going to win. But we do fundamentally on some level need institutions to make the country run. We want those institutions to be properly incentivized. In 10 years, Bitcoin is
00:00:19 either at a million dollars or is zero dollars. Ken, it's great to have you on the show. Thank you for joining me. Marty, finally. We've been we've been kicking us around for a few weeks. I'm glad we uh glad we were finally able to make it work. As I was telling you, in the middle of a move, conference in the middle of that move. It's been a hectic week, so I think I'm finally settling in. As you can see, no bookshelf, but we have stacked books behind me. Hopefully, they will be on on shelves soon.
00:00:52 No, there there are definitely ways there are ways in the world to get you know to get credits on um you know uh what do you call it? Um uh we're good Catholics, you know, when you when you pass and don't go to heaven. Um come on. Thank you. Well, moving is purgatory credit. So, I've done it many times in my life. So, I uh I feel for you. Well, thank you. But I'm really excited for this conversation and likewise the event in a few weeks, the BPI event down in DC, the summit, we met about a month ago, two months ago now at
00:01:26 this point in Austin during the takeover. And Zach was very eager to introduce you to me considering the the history of the show, topics we covered. And I think I'm excited for this cuz I'm infinitely curious to learn how somebody with your pedigree and your resume got into Bitcoin is now working for the Bitcoin Policy Institute as a director of government affairs. So for anybody listening who was unaware of Ken's resume, he did 20 years in government culminating as deputy chief of operations at the CIA Center for Cyber
00:02:01 Intelligence. uh you've worked overseas for the US State Department and now you're advocating on behalf of Bitcoin on Capitol Hill. So, how does somebody with that resume go from statecraft to cipher punk sort of ideas? Yeah. No, so I um like everybody else, I uh I um my my Bitcoin journey is a little bit everybody everybody has a unique journey, right? Um mine actually started at CIA, believe it or not. And it was for purely professional reasons. I um so I was an operations officer. I spent most of my career overseas um as
00:02:37 most of us do. Um but my last two years, my last two turn tours at CIA, I was at the center for cyber intelligence, which is CIA's cyber unit. Um and my first job there, I was group ch I was a operations chief for a group that worked on cyber threat issues. And this was in 2018. So you remember this was when Lazarus group the North Koreans figured out that stealing crypto was a lot easier than like you know trying to rob banks. Um this is when ransomware broke out as a serious problem just preceded you may
00:03:04 remember the Colonial Pipeline hack that shut down you know gasoline shipments to the east coast. So in 2018 um and it's kind of funny like I this is people say did the CIA create Bitcoin. I can tell you in 2018 when policy makers first had to confront its use by actors as an issue like nobody was ready for it. Like if they created it, it was tucked away and hidden in the basement cuz the the bench for people with crypto knowledge in general, digital assets, certainly Bitcoin was really really really shallow. Um I remember we had two
00:03:33 guys um who kind of had background in it and then you they became superstars because all of a sudden we were calling upon them to teach us about Bitcoin and digital assets in general. Um, but yeah, that's so I learned and like everything else, I learned about it because I had to because people we cared people we cared about were using it. Um, but like everything else there there was sort of a mind virus to it. Um, and I I admit, you know, I during co I was in the uh I was in the altcoin casino. I was defying
00:04:00 and memecoining and it was it was fun, you know. No, I I I don't hold any hate for the uh for the alcoiners. People do what they want with their money. Um but I you know that that was when it was during co um I had been sort of buying in 2018 but during co when I really started learning because this is what everybody learned right um and I you know for me Bitcoin was immediately attracted me to it and I was sort of inspired by um I mean the co Kenny trucker protest was something really important to me um I saw how it was
00:04:29 being used um but also sort of in my day job you know I I had a pretty good understanding of how the government uses financial financial tools as a weapon. Um, freezing bank accounts, OFAC sanctions, that kind of thing. And if you're on the, you know, on the giving end of that, that's great. Those are great tools to have if you're the government. Uh, not so great if you're on the other end of it. And, you know, watching these Canadian truckers the first time, you know, you'll be able to, it's very easy
00:04:54 to say, "Yeah, sanction the Iranian, sanction North Korea, whatever." You know, I'm not Iranian. Um but when you see all of a sudden Kat and Trucker people you had some sympathy with being targets of financial you know weaposition of the financial system it you know it struck it struck a it struck a nerve like a really really profound stinging shot to my consciousness my conscious about this issue. Um so for me for the first thing about Bitcoin was um was permissionless transactions that that's that's what got me into it. Um
00:05:23 then of course you go from there and by the time I left the government 2022 I had I was f I was you know full boore I was you know attending meetups and um that's when I started doing some advocacy stuff on Capitol Hill and and and messing around with uh David and Granny PPI doing some advocacy stuff but yeah but it it comes from my time at CIA and yeah I think the um the uh I think what might surprise some people is there are a lot of Bitcoiners um not just at CIA but across the whole national
00:05:52 security establishment And I think they're into it for the same reason that you know that everybody most of your listeners are right like it's you see what's happening in the world. You see the challenges we're facing. You see how governments use financial tools to weaponize them against opposition. You know it's it's very natural that if you have that kind of insight that you look for things to protect yourself and Bitcoin is obvious. So I I I tell a funny story when I um when I was first into it there was um cubicle one of the
00:06:17 guys and he had a bumper